[187] [Sakavādin:] Is the person (puggala) apprehended in the sense of a real and ultimate fact (sacchikaṭṭha-paramaṭṭha)?
[Paravādin:] Yes.
[Sakavādin:] Is not the Blessed One a speaker of truth, a speaker at the proper time, a speaker of what is real, a speaker of what is so, a speaker of what is not untrue, a speaker of what is not otherwise?
[Paravādin:] Yes.
[Sakavādin:] It was said by the Blessed One: "Bhikkhus, there being a self (attā), would there be [the thought], 'There is what belongs to my self (attaniya)'?" — "So it is, venerable sir." — "Or, bhikkhus, there being what belongs to a self, would there be [the thought], 'There is my self'?" — "So it is, venerable sir." — "Bhikkhus, since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established, is not this standpoint for views (diṭṭhiṭṭhāna) — namely, 'That is the world, that is the self; after death I shall be permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change; I shall endure just so, the same as eternity itself' — an utterly and completely foolish doctrine (bāladhamma)?" — "It could not be anything else, venerable sir; for indeed, venerable sir, it is an utterly and completely foolish doctrine."¹ Is there indeed such a Sutta (suttanta)?
[Paravādin:] Yes.
[Sakavādin:] Then indeed it should not be said that "the person is apprehended in the sense of a real and ultimate fact."
¹ [Siam edition footnote:] Khu. Pa. 433.
English translation from the Pali (Siam Raṭṭha edition) — under review, not for citation.